http://exalted.xi.co.nz/w/index.php?action=history&feed=atom&title=Darloth%2FTrithLogDarloth/TrithLog - Revision history2026-05-17T17:31:05ZRevision history for this page on the wikiMediaWiki 1.29.0http://exalted.xi.co.nz/w/index.php?title=Darloth/TrithLog&diff=66734&oldid=prevConversion script: link fix2010-04-06T01:15:41Z<p>link fix</p>
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<tr><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f9f9f9; color: #333333; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #e6e6e6; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><br>[17:40 Friday] Cruithne: Howso? If they're more expensive that high, people will go for charms instead.</div></td><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f9f9f9; color: #333333; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #e6e6e6; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><br>[17:40 Friday] Cruithne: Howso? If they're more expensive that high, people will go for charms instead.</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f9f9f9; color: #333333; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #e6e6e6; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><br>[17:40 Friday] Cruithne: Maybe spread charm effects out a bit..</div></td><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f9f9f9; color: #333333; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #e6e6e6; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><br>[17:40 Friday] Cruithne: Maybe spread charm effects out a bit..</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'>−</td><td style="color:black; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><br>[17:40 Friday] Darloth: Not necessarily. Some people for IC or OOC reasons want to be the MegaBestSwordsmanEVAR!!!</div></td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color:black; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><br>[17:40 Friday] Darloth: Not necessarily. Some people for IC or OOC reasons want to be the <ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">[[</ins>MegaBestSwordsmanEVAR<ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">]]</ins>!!!</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f9f9f9; color: #333333; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #e6e6e6; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><br>[17:40 Friday] Cruithne: So, move some effects hgher up the essence scale.</div></td><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f9f9f9; color: #333333; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #e6e6e6; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><br>[17:40 Friday] Cruithne: So, move some effects hgher up the essence scale.</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f9f9f9; color: #333333; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #e6e6e6; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><br>[17:41 Friday] Cruithne: Making for essence 4-5 being less OMGWTF.</div></td><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f9f9f9; color: #333333; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #e6e6e6; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><br>[17:41 Friday] Cruithne: Making for essence 4-5 being less OMGWTF.</div></td></tr>
</table>Conversion scripthttp://exalted.xi.co.nz/w/index.php?title=Darloth/TrithLog&diff=11619&oldid=prevDarloth: this conversation mainly about changing exalted, probably seed of another resystem project, so I'm saving it here.2007-03-23T18:13:58Z<p>this conversation mainly about changing exalted, probably seed of another resystem project, so I'm saving it here.</p>
<p><b>New page</b></p><div><br>[17:24 Friday] Darloth: Exalted tries hard<br />
<br>[17:24 Friday] Darloth: To a point, it's okay<br />
<br>[17:24 Friday] Darloth: But past that point (I think it's essence 4 ^_^) it fails<br />
<br>[17:24 Friday] Cruithne: probably because I like exalted at every level, except for needing cleaning.<br />
<br>[17:24 Friday] Darloth: (Essence 4 solars, that is)<br />
<br>[17:24 Friday] Cruithne: yes. ess4 it goes mad<br />
<br>[17:25 Friday] Darloth: It's because it doesn't have enough... of whatever it is, to counterbalance the ever-increasing need for more<br />
<br>[17:25 Friday] Cruithne: at ess4, there's nowhere left to go.<br />
<br>[17:26 Friday] Darloth: I think Nobilis does it with a mix of social constraint, diceless mechanics, and very, very focussed ability<br />
<br>[17:26 Friday] Cruithne: you've got these insanely powerful effects already<br />
<br>[17:26 Friday] Darloth: Ess 4-5 basically seems like "more often"<br />
<br>[17:26 Friday] Cruithne: It's something I'm looking into..<br />
<br>[17:26 Friday] Cruithne: But I prefer my exalted at ess 2-3 anyway<br />
<br>[17:26 Friday] Darloth: You already have a defense that can never be beaten. You can use it on nearly everything, if you can afford it<br />
<br>[17:26 Friday] Darloth: It's a little sad because the sorcery scale is a bit off.<br />
<br>[17:27 Friday] Darloth: Ess 5 sorcery feels just right<br />
<br>[17:27 Friday] Cruithne: I feel that's where the game is at it's best, because you're not overly madly powerful, but you're powerful enough to be awesome.<br />
<br>[17:27 Friday] Darloth: But solar charms are an entire essence-level in front<br />
<br>[17:27 Friday] Cruithne: It's also exalted's anime feel that I love.<br />
<br>[17:27 Friday] Cruithne: hehe.<br />
<br>[17:27 Friday] Darloth: What they get at essence 2, everyone else gets at 3, and likewise<br />
<br>[17:28 Friday] Darloth: could fix that by moving the sorcery charms down a step for solars<br />
<br>[17:28 Friday] Cruithne: eh?<br />
<br>[17:28 Friday] Darloth: Sorcery at essence 2! Even more reason for siddies to hate them!<br />
<br>[17:28 Friday] Cruithne: that'd be..<br />
<br>[17:29 Friday] Darloth: not actually that different.<br />
<br>[17:29 Friday] Cruithne: well... it'd help with trying to limit the game to essence 2-3.<br />
<br>[17:29 Friday] Darloth: It's usually spell availability that's the limiting factor, for a start<br />
<br>[17:29 Friday] Cruithne: yeah<br />
<br>[17:29 Friday] Darloth: Plus, at ess 2 you have less Essence (so less successes) and less essence (so less spells per day)<br />
<br>[17:30 Friday] Cruithne: I'm looking at ways to make exalted play better with minimal adjustment.<br />
<br>[17:30 Friday] Cruithne: houserules need to be explained, that takes time.<br />
<br>[17:31 Friday] Cruithne: Also, my tick hack...<br />
<br>[17:31 Friday] Cruithne: I'm pondering a rate = attacks availible over (speed) ticks.<br />
<br>[17:31 Friday] Cruithne: So you can flurry, but they can be spread out, and you can interupt with them, etc.<br />
<br>[17:31 Friday] Darloth: yeah...<br />
<br>[17:32 Friday] Cruithne: and it feels less 'attack... wait, wait wait... attack'<br />
<br>[17:32 Friday] Cruithne: it's 'attack, parry, attack attack, dodge, start over'<br />
<br>[17:34 Friday] Darloth: Exalted's combat system really kinda sucks. Before charms, there's not much too it.<br />
<br>[17:35 Friday] Cruithne: So does it's chargen, imo.<br />
<br>[17:35 Friday] Darloth: possibly so<br />
<br>[17:35 Friday] Cruithne: You can be Ability 5 with ease, making growth all about charsms.<br />
<br>[17:35 Friday] Darloth: in fact, exalted sucks. The setting is good, but if only it hadn't been white wolf.<br />
<br>[17:35 Friday] Cruithne: which is okay if charms were more diverse, i guess.<br />
<br>[17:35 Friday] Cruithne: Haha :)<br />
<br>[17:35 Friday] Cruithne: I do like storyteller, and I think there's promise.<br />
<br>[17:35 Friday] Darloth: have you seen Weapons of the Gods?<br />
<br>[17:35 Friday] Cruithne: But i'm going to need to get a hacksaw<br />
<br>[17:36 Friday] Darloth: I just think we're hacking it so much there's not much left<br />
<br>[17:36 Friday] Cruithne: i started again.<br />
<br>[17:36 Friday] Darloth: we need to look at it from a core design perspective. Do we honestly WANT abilities running from 1-5?<br />
<br>[17:36 Friday] Cruithne: from a fresh 2e slate.<br />
<br>[17:36 Friday] Cruithne: hmmm.<br />
<br>[17:36 Friday] Cruithne: well...<br />
<br>[17:36 Friday] Cruithne: I, regardless of any factors, like the multiple dice vs tn system/<br />
<br>[17:37 Friday] Cruithne: of course, i like that in SR4 too...<br />
<br>[17:37 Friday] Darloth: what's wrong with 1-min(5,2*Ess)?<br />
<br>[17:37 Friday] Cruithne: So, hrm.<br />
<br>[17:37 Friday] Cruithne: ......<br />
<br>[17:37 Friday] Cruithne: Just make it worse. But hmmm.<br />
<br>[17:37 Friday] Darloth: why's that make it worse?<br />
<br>[17:37 Friday] Cruithne: hang on..<br />
<br>[17:37 Friday] Cruithne: isn't that how it is now?<br />
<br>[17:37 Friday] Darloth: no<br />
<br>[17:38 Friday] Darloth: At present it's 1..min(5,Ess)<br />
<br>[17:38 Friday] Darloth: meaning you need to get to essence 6 to break the essence boundry<br />
<br>[17:38 Friday] Cruithne: so, you'd need to be ess 3 under the above system.<br />
<br>[17:38 Friday] Darloth: if, at essence 3, you could start raising abilities to 6...<br />
<br>[17:38 Friday] Cruithne: which... hmm.<br />
<br>[17:38 Friday] Darloth: and then 8 at essence 4...<br />
<br>[17:39 Friday] Darloth: It gives characters more room to grow<br />
<br>[17:39 Friday] Cruithne: it does. Also, rule of 10.<br />
<br>[17:39 Friday] Cruithne: Sounds awesome on paper...<br />
<br>[17:39 Friday] Cruithne: Leads to exalts doing stuff that goes waaay beyond legendary. Do you know what 14 sucesses is?<br />
<br>[17:39 Friday] Darloth: and since abilities are actually really expensive up that high, xp wise, might balance out the charms, charms, more charms factor.<br />
<br>[17:39 Friday] Cruithne: it's the god-damn planet!<br />
<br>[17:40 Friday] Cruithne: Howso? If they're more expensive that high, people will go for charms instead.<br />
<br>[17:40 Friday] Cruithne: Maybe spread charm effects out a bit..<br />
<br>[17:40 Friday] Darloth: Not necessarily. Some people for IC or OOC reasons want to be the MegaBestSwordsmanEVAR!!!<br />
<br>[17:40 Friday] Cruithne: So, move some effects hgher up the essence scale.<br />
<br>[17:41 Friday] Cruithne: Making for essence 4-5 being less OMGWTF.<br />
<br>[17:41 Friday] Darloth: Yeah.<br />
<br>[17:41 Friday] Cruithne: Make it so that up to ess 5, you're still in the boundaries of 'normal'<br />
<br>[17:41 Friday] Darloth: Plus, if your natural pool is 14 dice, then your pool adders etc can go larger<br />
<br>[17:41 Friday] Cruithne: at ess 6, break the damn rules.<br />
<br>[17:41 Friday] Darloth: Meh, that may be too much<br />
<br>[17:42 Friday] Cruithne: consider the size of those pools.<br />
<br>[17:42 Friday] Cruithne: 14 dice, 14m later, 28 dice...<br />
<br>[17:42 Friday] Cruithne: That's a lot of pool.<br />
<br>[17:42 Friday] Darloth: yes, and?<br />
<br>[17:42 Friday] Cruithne: Hmmm...<br />
<br>[17:42 Friday] Cruithne: Not sure if that's a good thing or a bad thing. )<br />
<br>[17:42 Friday] Darloth: the difficulty scale already needs to be reorganized.<br />
<br>[17:42 Friday] Darloth: and people can already get gobbets of dice<br />
<br>[17:42 Friday] Cruithne: Yeah, true.<br />
<br>[17:43 Friday] Darloth: this only really lets SOLARS get -EXTRA- gobbets<br />
<br>[17:43 Friday] Darloth: Lunars, limited by attributes ARGHigh costs...<br />
<br>[17:43 Friday] Cruithne: *snigger8<br />
<br>[17:43 Friday] Darloth: siddies, are using Essence anyway...<br />
<br>[17:43 Friday] Darloth: DBs, okay, so they can get more dice! Whoohoo, an extra few dice. They need them<br />
<br>[17:43 Friday] Cruithne: haha.<br />
<br>[17:44 Friday] Cruithne: charms...<br />
<br>[17:44 Friday] Cruithne: need more dynamism.<br />
<br>[17:44 Friday] Cruithne: I'm tempted to experiment with just removing the charmslot limit.<br />
<br>[17:44 Friday] Darloth: I think some limit is necessary<br />
<br>[17:45 Friday] Cruithne: probably.<br />
<br>[17:45 Friday] Darloth: a) because limits can be bent, or broken - this leads to feeling more powerful, and defines character abilities better<br />
<br>[17:45 Friday] Darloth: b) to define combos<br />
<br>[17:45 Friday] Darloth: c) to keep things sane.<br />
<br>[17:45 Friday] Cruithne: yeah, comboes are nice.<br />
<br>[17:45 Friday] Cruithne: But made too expensive to make now.<br />
<br>[17:45 Friday] Darloth: combo system is broken at the moment<br />
<br>[17:46 Friday] Darloth: So, charms are broken, charcre is broken, powerlevels are broken, setting is great, feel is great, combos broken, difficulty levels broken...<br />
<br>[17:46 Friday] Cruithne: All broken, broken, broken.<br />
<br>[17:46 Friday] Darloth: We need our own system with its own character creation, roll examples, difficulty lists, charmtrees, etc.<br />
<br>[17:46 Friday] Cruithne: Gah. It needs to be done from nothing.<br />
<br>[17:46 Friday] Cruithne: Just built around the system.<br />
<br>[17:46 Friday] Darloth: Yep.<br />
<br>[17:47 Friday] Cruithne: exalted was originally a hack-job of Vampire...<br />
<br>[17:47 Friday] Darloth: we both agree that the Attribute + Ability system works quite nicely<br />
<br>[17:47 Friday] Cruithne: Yes.<br />
<br>[17:47 Friday] Darloth: Although there is scope for other weirdness<br />
<br>[17:47 Friday] Darloth: Jadeclaw makes the whole "I can never beat his roll" thing less of a problem by changing size of dice and not totalling rolls...<br />
<br>[17:48 Friday] Darloth: Weapons of the Gods does weird things, but in general has... ODD rolls.<br />
<br>[17:48 Friday] Cruithne: I've experimented with systems like that in the past.<br />
<br>[17:48 Friday] Cruithne: It adds randomness issues sometimes.<br />
<br>[17:49 Friday] Darloth: You ltake the three highest, add them, possibly shift in a double from your stored pool and divide by pi to calculate your awesomesauce, add 3 red chakra and mix for 20 minutes till smooth<br />
<br>[17:49 Friday] Cruithne: haha.<br />
<br>[17:49 Friday] Darloth: Seriously, you should read it<br />
<br>[17:49 Friday] Cruithne: assuming retaining of ST, I want to remove the rule of 10.<br />
<br>[17:49 Friday] Cruithne: It just furthur augments massive pool effects.<br />
<br>[17:49 Friday] Cruithne: And creates annoying flukes.<br />
<br>[17:50 Friday] Darloth: aren't annoying flukes part of anime?<br />
<br>[17:50 Friday] Cruithne: When multiple 10s appear, it really messes things up.<br />
<br>[17:50 Friday] Darloth: we need more tokens and counters<br />
<br>[17:50 Friday] Darloth: Make the rule of 10 something you pay for<br />
<br>[17:50 Friday] Cruithne: Yes, but when someone rolls 10,10,10,10,9,7,5,3,1... it becomes. argha<br />
<br>[17:50 Friday] Darloth: like Edge in SR4<br />
<br>[17:50 Friday] Cruithne: tokens and counters. aaah.<br />
<br>[17:50 Friday] Cruithne: like.. yeah<br />
<br>[17:51 Friday] Darloth: hehe. You should look at Albedo<br />
<br>[17:51 Friday] Cruithne: (Heard the GMS remix of Red Fraction?)<br />
<br>[17:51 Friday] Darloth: (Yes, I believe it's my favorite)<br />
<br>[17:51 Friday] Cruithne: (it's nice, yes)<br />
<br>[17:51 Friday] Darloth: The entire system is build around pools, not die pools but pointpools<br />
<br>[17:52 Friday] Darloth: and you use these pools to do things with dice. It also has fixed-values all over the place<br />
<br>[17:52 Friday] Cruithne: (Oh, I need to ask. How're you going for tomorrow being here-ness)<br />
<br>[17:52 Friday] Darloth: 90%<br />
<br>[17:52 Friday] Cruithne: 'k.<br />
<br>[17:52 Friday] Darloth: I feel okay right now, I'm getting some work done... I believe I'll survive<br />
<br>[17:53 Friday] Cruithne: Hehe.<br />
<br>[17:53 Friday] Darloth: although I still have no ideas for anything to DO in this hotel<br />
<br>[17:53 Friday] Cruithne: I'll probably be late. People want me to drink, but I have declined. However, I have people around anyway for some anime and suchlike, and I'll need to nap too.<br />
<br>[17:53 Friday] Darloth: okay<br />
<br>[17:54 Friday] Darloth: but more pools, tokens, reserves, soybeam trading, etc<br />
<br>[17:54 Friday] Cruithne: I personally like exalted's essence system.<br />
<br>[17:54 Friday] Cruithne: and charmtrees.<br />
<br>[17:55 Friday] Cruithne: I think they're good ideas, just that everything's crammed into too small a space.<br />
<br>[17:55 Friday] Darloth: what do you like about the essence system?<br />
<br>[17:55 Friday] Cruithne: It's like MP, and sits well with me.<br />
<br>[17:55 Friday] Darloth: considered making it smaller?<br />
<br>[17:55 Friday] Cruithne: Maybe we need a system for.. wait, those are called excellencies. :)<br />
<br>[17:55 Friday] Cruithne: smaller/<br />
<br>[17:56 Friday] Cruithne: I'd like to take the existing charmspreads and spread them out over the essence levels more. And ability levels, to a lesser extent.<br />
<br>[17:57 Friday] Darloth: well, the 1m/1die correspondance is neat, but the sheer scale of essencepools makes it difficult to grade effects<br />
<br>[17:57 Friday] Darloth: most systems use smaller numbers<br />
<br>[17:57 Friday] Darloth: for bigger effects<br />
<br>[17:57 Friday] Cruithne: So, smaller pools?<br />
<br>[17:58 Friday] Cruithne: making spending essence a bigger thing?<br />
<br>[17:58 Friday] Darloth: yeah. Maybe as much as /3 or /5<br />
<br>[17:58 Friday] Cruithne: We can fiddle. I like essence atm, but there's always room for improvement.<br />
<br>[17:58 Friday] Darloth: I also like different flavours of essence, but I've always liked that and it's perhaps overcomplex for this<br />
<br>[18:00 Friday] Darloth: But my general reasoning is this<br />
<br>[18:00 Friday] Darloth: Those 1m expenses...<br />
<br>[18:00 Friday] Darloth: What do they buy yoiu?<br />
<br>[18:00 Friday] Darloth: Also, is it WORTH tracking them?<br />
<br>[18:00 Friday] Cruithne: You're often spending those in chunks of 8 or 9 though.<br />
<br>[18:00 Friday] Darloth: for things like lighting your castemark<br />
<br>[18:00 Friday] Darloth: knowing the time of day<br />
<br>[18:00 Friday] Cruithne: Oh pffft.<br />
<br>[18:01 Friday] Darloth: what is the smallest actually USED, MEANINGFUL expenditure of essence?<br />
<br>[18:01 Friday] Cruithne: No-one ever uses those<br />
<br>[18:01 Friday] Darloth: I'd say it's the 2-3 mark<br />
<br>[18:01 Friday] Cruithne: Hmm.<br />
<br>[18:01 Friday] Cruithne: I find myself using the 1st excellency more than most effect charms.<br />
<br>[18:01 Friday] Cruithne: and the 2nd.<br />
<br>[18:02 Friday] Darloth: excellencies annoy m<br />
<br>[18:02 Friday] Darloth: me<br />
<br>[18:02 Friday] Cruithne: thematically?<br />
<br>[18:02 Friday] Cruithne: or mechanically?<br />
<br>[18:02 Friday] Darloth: both<br />
<br>[18:02 Friday] Darloth: 2e core is built around them<br />
<br>[18:02 Friday] Cruithne: okay then...<br />
<br>[18:02 Friday] Darloth: But they don't fit the setting<br />
<br>[18:02 Friday] Cruithne: yes, it is/.<br />
<br>[18:03 Friday] Darloth: or at least, their mechanical interpretation doesn't<br />
<br>[18:03 Friday] Darloth: Wouldn't it make more sense if you automatically had all excellencies for all caste/favoured abilities?<br />
<br>[18:03 Friday] Cruithne: hmmm.<br />
<br>[18:03 Friday] Cruithne: it would, actually.<br />
<br>[18:03 Friday] Darloth: these are anime heros - why do they need to LEARN to get better at their Schtick?<br />
<br>[18:03 Friday] Cruithne: (I hate re-rollerss though. kill them)<br />
<br>[18:03 Friday] Darloth: As a rather expensive and apparently fundamental capability.<br />
<br>[18:04 Friday] Darloth: (Rerollers are a good thing)<br />
<br>[18:04 Friday] Darloth: Why don't you like them?<br />
<br>[18:04 Friday] Cruithne: I find them hard to rationalise<br />
<br>[18:04 Friday] Cruithne: they feel too meta<br />
<br>[18:06 Friday] Darloth: Meta... meta...<br />
<br>[18:06 Friday] Darloth: (Sorry, Leblanc being given massage next to me, rather distracting.)<br />
<br>[18:06 Friday] Darloth: Anyway<br />
<br>[18:06 Friday] Cruithne: Maybe what we should be aiming for is a faster game. less mote counting, less thinking about how to deploy a charm for best effect, and just getting on with the shiny anime goodness.<br />
<br>[18:06 Friday] Darloth: Yeah.<br />
<br>[18:07 Friday] Darloth: Meta - Why is rerolling better?<br />
<br>[18:07 Friday] Cruithne: it's just a simple case of a reroll is like a retcon.<br />
<br>[18:07 Friday] Cruithne: the roll's been made, the event is done... err.<br />
<br>[18:07 Friday] Darloth: Let's assume that anime characters may, in many cases, be luckier than normal people<br />
<br>[18:09 Friday] Darloth: what if the player isn't happy with a roll, feels it's out of character<br />
<br>[18:09 Friday] Cruithne: hmm.<br />
<br>[18:10 Friday] Darloth: If it's an anime... an anime being told as a story...<br />
<br>[18:11 Friday] Darloth: Then players should be able to steer the story in the direction they prefer, yes?<br />
<br>[18:11 Friday] Cruithne: suppose...<br />
<br>[18:11 Friday] Cruithne: it bears though.</div>Darloth