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−	#REDIRECT [[~~DBSInfernalExaltedDBSInfernalCharms~~/Charms]]	+	#REDIRECT [[DBSInfernalExalted/Charms]]

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−	~~= Infernal Exalted Charms =~~

−	~~== Concept ==~~
−
−	Infernals possess Charms designed to attack and subvert. They aren't particularly efficient and often have high requirements, but are focused around what Infernals are designed to do - kill gods and their agents, and subtly take Creation on the Yozis' behalf. Consequently, they have many Charms designed to attack creatures they otherwise couldn't affect and Charms designed to subvert power, but few defensive or leadership Charms. They often have impossible or unnatural effects and descriptions, and have ongoing themes of song, dance, causality, delusion and treachery.
−
−	~~== Die Stealing Effects ==~~
−
−	Instead of bolstering their own abilities like the Solars or hampering their foes like the Abyssals, the Infernal's magic subverts or steals the prowess of their opponents. They possess no traditional die-adders, but have several effects that 'steal dice'. For each die stolen, the Exalt adds one die to her own pool, and subtracts one from her opponent's. This has two restrictions: the Exalt cannot steal more die than her normal Attribute+Ability die pool, and whilst her opponent can be reduced into negative dice by the theoretical effect, it cannot be reduced below their Essence in dice unless they would normally have less.
−
−	Die may be taken from a pool that it not used, or added to one that isn't either, with no negative effect. Consider them to have two separate functions: increasing the character's die pool and reducing their opponent's pool independantly, and can perform one job without the other. They act in that case as simple die-adders or subtractors, although they are particularly inefficient in this regard.
−
−	Additions or subtractions to a pool apply only at that exact moment - thus, a defence raised against an attack is reduced by die stealing (they are considered to be in the same 'Instant', as is an opposed motion in a debate, but an attack later that turn is unaffected.
−
−	<i>Example: Aesha Screams-Like-Steel laying in wait in a rainstorm for one the Wyld Hunt and sees a Dragon-Blooded enter the clearing infront of her. Leaping across and over him, she fires an arrow downward, masked by the rain. She has a normal die pool of 9, and invokes Serenade of the Sniper (steal dice from dodge to add to archery) to steal another 7 dice for a total of 16. The Dragon-Blooded whirls up his jade daiklave to parry the incoming arrow, rooted to the spot by the bolt's screech. As he is parrying rather than dodging, he does not lose dice and uses his normal parry pool of 8 dice. Where he to dodge instead, his die pool would be only 2 (8 dodge pool minus 8, reduced to a minimum of 2, his Essence).</i>
−
−	It is possible to gain dice in a roll you otherwise wouldn't have through use of die-stealing charms. If so, you have a basic dice pool of 0 for such actions, and can enhance this only by use of Charms. You must, however, be actively influencing matters to incite a die-stealing Charm. You may steal a political candidate's die when choosing who is nominated for governor or supercede their laws with your own, but you cannot oppose her simply upon hearing that she is going to stand.
−
−	<i>Example: Scalding Dew is at a Realm ball, having stolen the identity of a wealthy patrician. Across the room he notices one of his political rivals attempting to seduce an eligable Dragon-Blooded woman, slight as his chances might be. He meets his foe's eye and uses Glance of Treacherous Insight to steal 6 of his rival's 9 dice for himself. His foe is now rolling 3 dice for himself and 6 on Scalding Dew's behalf. His political opponent finds himself espousing his enemy's merits instead of his own - and successfully seduces the woman, albeit for the wrong person.</i>
−
−	~~== Forsaken Caste Charms ==~~
−
−	* DBSInfernalCharmsArchery
−	* DBSInfernalCharmsBrawl
−	* DBSInfernalCharmsMartialArts
−	* DBSInfernalCharmsMelee
−	* DBSInfernalCharmsThrown
−
−	~~== Blasphemous Caste Charms ==~~
−
−	* DBSInfernalCharmsEndurance
−	* DBSInfernalCharmsPerformance
−	* DBSInfernalCharmsPresence
−	* DBSInfernalCharmsResistance
−	* DBSInfernalCharmsSurvival
−
−	~~== Unclean Caste Charms ==~~
−
−	* DBSInfernalCharmsCraft
−	* DBSInfernalCharmsInvestigation
−	* DBSInfernalCharmsLore
−	* DBSInfernalCharmsMedicine
−	* DBSInfernalCharmsOccult
−
−	~~== Wretched Caste Charms ==~~
−
−	* DBSInfernalCharmsAthletics
−	* DBSInfernalCharmsAwareness
−	* DBSInfernalCharmsDodge
−	* DBSInfernalCharmsLarceny
−	* DBSInfernalCharmsStealth
−
−	~~== Deceiver Caste Charms ==~~
−
−	* DBSInfernalCharmsBureaucracy
−	* DBSInfernalCharmsLinguistics
−	* DBSInfernalCharmsRide
−	* DBSInfernalCharmsSail
−	* DBSInfernalCharmsSocialise
−
−	~~Back to DBSInfernalExalted / Back to DeathBySurfeit's page~~
−
−	~~== Comments ==~~
−
−	Just a thought- you might wanna have two tiers of dice stealers, one of Attribute and one of Ability. Since each die stolen is effectively two dice gained. Also, don't forget that no effect can reduce a dicepool below the target's Essence. So, using either one you could only steal up to 5 dice at the most, but using both you could steal up to 10- but this would take a combo, and could increase the Essence cost of both charms (like the Abyssals do).
−
−	~~Finally, how does dice stealing work when multiple rolls oppose a single one (such as a melee attack opposed by a parry and a dodge)? [[DS]]~~
−
−	Whilst two tiers of dice stealers would be tempting, it would be dull and unrewarding to have two Charms with essentially the same effect. The reducing-to-Essence score is already mentioned in the Die Stealing Mechanics section, so that should be alright. With regards the mutliple-defences, die stealers only reduce one type of die pool, so either the parry or the dodge would be affected. Thanks for the comments!
−
−	~~...DeathBySurfeit~~
−
−	I see a lot of Charms here whose text suggests that they are supposed to break through perfect defences. This doesn't seem appropriate to me, regardless of whether you intend to use Infernals as PCs or antagonists. If they are PCs, this basically destroys a whole class of defensive Charms that the ST can no longer use effectively. If they are antagonists, it makes them into blunt instruments! The players will undoubtedly call "foul" when they try to HGD something that's somehow superperfectly unparriable. They paid in experience and Charm prerequisites and effort for that perfect defence, and breakers take away from that. It's insulting and unpleasant. Was this your intention? - [[willows]]
−
−	I certainly did not intend to be insulting or unpleasant to anyone. To my understanding, there are three Charms with this function (For Whom The Bell Tolls, Melee, Prescient Hunter's Cascade, Archery and Fivefold Sigil Staccato, Martial Arts). FwtbT now doesn't touch perfect parries, PHC is no longer a perfect attack, and FfSS has been clarified to show that perfect charms work fine to negate the initial use of the Charm (and prevent it from activating), just that they don't affect the secondary damage. I had no desire to overpower anything, and was not aware of the taboo on perfect attacks. I had placed them on equivalent levels to perfect defences in Charm trees with equivalent prerequisites - note that Infernals lack any perfect defences (or even parry charms) as a commesurate penalty. However, I have disabled this ability in all forms across the Charm tree in response to advice from the Wiki.
−
−	~~Sorry if I have offended you in any way.~~
−
−	~~...DeathBySurfeit~~
−
−	To my knowledge, it's not "taboo against perfect attacks", but "perfect attacks are trumped by perfect defenses, and there are no higher levels than perfect". There are allowed to be perfect attacks which will completely ignore anything which is not a perfect defense, and applicability can even sneak them past some perfect defenses, but there is no perfect attack that, as a general feature, trumps perfect defenses. -[[Ben-San]]
−	:Yeah, Ben's exactly got it here. If you look around in my own Charms, you'll see that I've actually written a lot of Charms in opposition to perfection; I just think that a superior-to-perfect attack should do it by circumventing perfect defences rather than by breaking through them; this generally makes them more interesting and difficult to deal with, but also creates an avenue whereby even ''they'' can be circumvented in their turn. I'm certainly not offended! I just get a bit curt when I'm posting late at night; I'm sorry for any offence that ''I'' have caused.
−	:I also noticed that you chose to omit perfect defences entirely. That's a risky and interesting choice, there! I worry that against serious attackers, this'll make Infernals incredibly fragile combatants; Solars (as much as I've played them) seem to absolutely ''live by'' their perfects. If I may make a suggestion, I think it'd be really cool for Infernals to have perfects, but in all cases they'd have to be rare and difficult to use—for instance, one Infernal may only be able to use perfects when standing on a bridge, while another may be able to parry attacks perfectly when he is fighting with an uprooted tower.
−	:Anyway, please take all this brainstorming with a grain of salt; it's absolutely informed by my vision of Infernals, which is obviously a bit different than yours, and I wouldn't want your Charms to lose your own distinctive touch because I stuck my nose in. - [[willows]]
−
−	~~Thanks for that clarification. ...DeathBySurfeit~~
−
−	~~Presumably, if they only have 6 dice in a pool, you're limited to stealing 6 dice no matter how many you pay for? <br> -- [[Darloth]]~~
−
−	For the purposes of simplicity, I'd suggest you aren't. It stops the Storyteller having to make die pool - Essence calculations for everything opposed, as well as having to offer metagaming knowledge as to the opponent's approximate aptitude. Die-stealing effects enhance the Infernal's efforts, and turn the opponent's efforts against them as two separate effects. After all, someone not rolling any opposition does not have a dice pool, and it would be troublesome to have to enquire whether a specific defence against an attack is going to be made before the event. ...DeathBySurfeit
−
−	:So if an Infernal dice-stealing Charm reduces a target's pool to a negative number, a Charm like Golden Essence Block would have to rebuild the pool from that number, rather than the target's minimum Essence, right? -[[LiOfOrchid]]
−
−	~~:Ooh, that's tough. I'd have to look over the power combat rules to check which way it would work...DeathBySurfeit~~
−
−	~~:I'd stick with the Essence limit. Seems wrong to take a dice-pool to negative numbers... [[nikink]]~~
−
−	~~: Agreed...DeathBySurfeit~~

← Older revision		Revision as of 13:36, 1 June 2005
(2 intermediate revisions by 2 users not shown)
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−	~~#REDIRECT~~ [[~~DBSInfernalExalted/~~Charms]]	+	= Infernal Exalted Charms =
		+
		+	== Concept ==
		+
		+	Infernals possess Charms designed to attack and subvert. They aren't particularly efficient and often have high requirements, but are focused around what Infernals are designed to do - kill gods and their agents, and subtly take Creation on the Yozis' behalf. Consequently, they have many Charms designed to attack creatures they otherwise couldn't affect and Charms designed to subvert power, but few defensive or leadership Charms. They often have impossible or unnatural effects and descriptions, and have ongoing themes of song, dance, causality, delusion and treachery.
		+
		+	== Die Stealing Effects ==
		+
		+	Instead of bolstering their own abilities like the Solars or hampering their foes like the Abyssals, the Infernal's magic subverts or steals the prowess of their opponents. They possess no traditional die-adders, but have several effects that 'steal dice'. For each die stolen, the Exalt adds one die to her own pool, and subtracts one from her opponent's. This has two restrictions: the Exalt cannot steal more die than her normal Attribute+Ability die pool, and whilst her opponent can be reduced into negative dice by the theoretical effect, it cannot be reduced below their Essence in dice unless they would normally have less.
		+
		+	Die may be taken from a pool that it not used, or added to one that isn't either, with no negative effect. Consider them to have two separate functions: increasing the character's die pool and reducing their opponent's pool independantly, and can perform one job without the other. They act in that case as simple die-adders or subtractors, although they are particularly inefficient in this regard.
		+
		+	Additions or subtractions to a pool apply only at that exact moment - thus, a defence raised against an attack is reduced by die stealing (they are considered to be in the same 'Instant', as is an opposed motion in a debate, but an attack later that turn is unaffected.
		+
		+	<i>Example: Aesha Screams-Like-Steel laying in wait in a rainstorm for one the Wyld Hunt and sees a Dragon-Blooded enter the clearing infront of her. Leaping across and over him, she fires an arrow downward, masked by the rain. She has a normal die pool of 9, and invokes Serenade of the Sniper (steal dice from dodge to add to archery) to steal another 7 dice for a total of 16. The Dragon-Blooded whirls up his jade daiklave to parry the incoming arrow, rooted to the spot by the bolt's screech. As he is parrying rather than dodging, he does not lose dice and uses his normal parry pool of 8 dice. Where he to dodge instead, his die pool would be only 2 (8 dodge pool minus 8, reduced to a minimum of 2, his Essence).</i>
		+
		+	It is possible to gain dice in a roll you otherwise wouldn't have through use of die-stealing charms. If so, you have a basic dice pool of 0 for such actions, and can enhance this only by use of Charms. You must, however, be actively influencing matters to incite a die-stealing Charm. You may steal a political candidate's die when choosing who is nominated for governor or supercede their laws with your own, but you cannot oppose her simply upon hearing that she is going to stand.
		+
		+	<i>Example: Scalding Dew is at a Realm ball, having stolen the identity of a wealthy patrician. Across the room he notices one of his political rivals attempting to seduce an eligable Dragon-Blooded woman, slight as his chances might be. He meets his foe's eye and uses Glance of Treacherous Insight to steal 6 of his rival's 9 dice for himself. His foe is now rolling 3 dice for himself and 6 on Scalding Dew's behalf. His political opponent finds himself espousing his enemy's merits instead of his own - and successfully seduces the woman, albeit for the wrong person.</i>
		+
		+	== Forsaken Caste Charms ==
		+
		+	* DBSInfernalCharmsArchery
		+	* DBSInfernalCharmsBrawl
		+	* DBSInfernalCharmsMartialArts
		+	* DBSInfernalCharmsMelee
		+	* DBSInfernalCharmsThrown
		+
		+	== Blasphemous Caste Charms ==
		+
		+	* DBSInfernalCharmsEndurance
		+	* DBSInfernalCharmsPerformance
		+	* DBSInfernalCharmsPresence
		+	* DBSInfernalCharmsResistance
		+	* DBSInfernalCharmsSurvival
		+
		+	== Unclean Caste Charms ==
		+
		+	* DBSInfernalCharmsCraft
		+	* DBSInfernalCharmsInvestigation
		+	* DBSInfernalCharmsLore
		+	* DBSInfernalCharmsMedicine
		+	* DBSInfernalCharmsOccult
		+
		+	== Wretched Caste Charms ==
		+
		+	* DBSInfernalCharmsAthletics
		+	* DBSInfernalCharmsAwareness
		+	* DBSInfernalCharmsDodge
		+	* DBSInfernalCharmsLarceny
		+	* DBSInfernalCharmsStealth
		+
		+	== Deceiver Caste Charms ==
		+
		+	* DBSInfernalCharmsBureaucracy
		+	* DBSInfernalCharmsLinguistics
		+	* DBSInfernalCharmsRide
		+	* DBSInfernalCharmsSail
		+	* DBSInfernalCharmsSocialise
		+
		+	Back to DBSInfernalExalted / Back to DeathBySurfeit's page
		+
		+	== Comments ==
		+
		+	Just a thought- you might wanna have two tiers of dice stealers, one of Attribute and one of Ability. Since each die stolen is effectively two dice gained. Also, don't forget that no effect can reduce a dicepool below the target's Essence. So, using either one you could only steal up to 5 dice at the most, but using both you could steal up to 10- but this would take a combo, and could increase the Essence cost of both charms (like the Abyssals do).
		+
		+	Finally, how does dice stealing work when multiple rolls oppose a single one (such as a melee attack opposed by a parry and a dodge)? [[DS]]
		+
		+	Whilst two tiers of dice stealers would be tempting, it would be dull and unrewarding to have two Charms with essentially the same effect. The reducing-to-Essence score is already mentioned in the Die Stealing Mechanics section, so that should be alright. With regards the mutliple-defences, die stealers only reduce one type of die pool, so either the parry or the dodge would be affected. Thanks for the comments!
		+
		+	...DeathBySurfeit
		+
		+	I see a lot of Charms here whose text suggests that they are supposed to break through perfect defences. This doesn't seem appropriate to me, regardless of whether you intend to use Infernals as PCs or antagonists. If they are PCs, this basically destroys a whole class of defensive Charms that the ST can no longer use effectively. If they are antagonists, it makes them into blunt instruments! The players will undoubtedly call "foul" when they try to HGD something that's somehow superperfectly unparriable. They paid in experience and Charm prerequisites and effort for that perfect defence, and breakers take away from that. It's insulting and unpleasant. Was this your intention? - [[willows]]
		+
		+	I certainly did not intend to be insulting or unpleasant to anyone. To my understanding, there are three Charms with this function (For Whom The Bell Tolls, Melee, Prescient Hunter's Cascade, Archery and Fivefold Sigil Staccato, Martial Arts). FwtbT now doesn't touch perfect parries, PHC is no longer a perfect attack, and FfSS has been clarified to show that perfect charms work fine to negate the initial use of the Charm (and prevent it from activating), just that they don't affect the secondary damage. I had no desire to overpower anything, and was not aware of the taboo on perfect attacks. I had placed them on equivalent levels to perfect defences in Charm trees with equivalent prerequisites - note that Infernals lack any perfect defences (or even parry charms) as a commesurate penalty. However, I have disabled this ability in all forms across the Charm tree in response to advice from the Wiki.
		+
		+	Sorry if I have offended you in any way.
		+
		+	...DeathBySurfeit
		+
		+	To my knowledge, it's not "taboo against perfect attacks", but "perfect attacks are trumped by perfect defenses, and there are no higher levels than perfect". There are allowed to be perfect attacks which will completely ignore anything which is not a perfect defense, and applicability can even sneak them past some perfect defenses, but there is no perfect attack that, as a general feature, trumps perfect defenses. -[[Ben-San]]
		+	:Yeah, Ben's exactly got it here. If you look around in my own Charms, you'll see that I've actually written a lot of Charms in opposition to perfection; I just think that a superior-to-perfect attack should do it by circumventing perfect defences rather than by breaking through them; this generally makes them more interesting and difficult to deal with, but also creates an avenue whereby even ''they'' can be circumvented in their turn. I'm certainly not offended! I just get a bit curt when I'm posting late at night; I'm sorry for any offence that ''I'' have caused.
		+	:I also noticed that you chose to omit perfect defences entirely. That's a risky and interesting choice, there! I worry that against serious attackers, this'll make Infernals incredibly fragile combatants; Solars (as much as I've played them) seem to absolutely ''live by'' their perfects. If I may make a suggestion, I think it'd be really cool for Infernals to have perfects, but in all cases they'd have to be rare and difficult to use—for instance, one Infernal may only be able to use perfects when standing on a bridge, while another may be able to parry attacks perfectly when he is fighting with an uprooted tower.
		+	:Anyway, please take all this brainstorming with a grain of salt; it's absolutely informed by my vision of Infernals, which is obviously a bit different than yours, and I wouldn't want your Charms to lose your own distinctive touch because I stuck my nose in. - [[willows]]
		+
		+	Thanks for that clarification. ...DeathBySurfeit
		+
		+	Presumably, if they only have 6 dice in a pool, you're limited to stealing 6 dice no matter how many you pay for? <br> -- [[Darloth]]
		+
		+	For the purposes of simplicity, I'd suggest you aren't. It stops the Storyteller having to make die pool - Essence calculations for everything opposed, as well as having to offer metagaming knowledge as to the opponent's approximate aptitude. Die-stealing effects enhance the Infernal's efforts, and turn the opponent's efforts against them as two separate effects. After all, someone not rolling any opposition does not have a dice pool, and it would be troublesome to have to enquire whether a specific defence against an attack is going to be made before the event. ...DeathBySurfeit
		+
		+	:So if an Infernal dice-stealing Charm reduces a target's pool to a negative number, a Charm like Golden Essence Block would have to rebuild the pool from that number, rather than the target's minimum Essence, right? -[[LiOfOrchid]]
		+
		+	:Ooh, that's tough. I'd have to look over the power combat rules to check which way it would work...DeathBySurfeit
		+
		+	:I'd stick with the Essence limit. Seems wrong to take a dice-pool to negative numbers... [[nikink]]
		+
		+	: Agreed...DeathBySurfeit

← Older revision	Revision as of 01:15, 6 April 2010
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