Combat/ShieldsAndMartialArts - Revision history

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2010-04-06T01:15:25Z

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DigitalSentience: Comment

2004-07-05T20:05:48Z

Comment

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This page is dedicated to the question of whether shields may be used with Martial Arts. Arguments for and against follow ...

== Arguments For ==
Shields differ from armour in the following ways:
#The base benefits differ (soak for armour, cover for a shield)
#Different Charms overcome them (Armour-Penetrating Fang Strike, vs. cover-piercing charms).
#You wear armour, you hold a shield
#Armour makes a difference in a clinch (provides soak), shields don't
#The magical material bonuses are different.
#Armour protects against a back strike, shields don't (without a stunt)
#Armour protects the vital areas, shields provide mobile cover

Other reasons
#The restriction against armour in many MA forms is accounted for in balancing as the inability to add soak through armour. Shields are specifically portable forms of cover instead (and I believe cover-nullifying charms interact with them accordingly). From a rules POV, they're simply nothing like armour.
#It seems wierd that I can use a powerbow or duel wield Reaver Daiklaives in Ebon Shadow Form, but I can't use a shield.
#In real life, many of the Indonesian and Filipino martial arts historically made use of shields.

== Arguments Against ==
Shields are similar to armour in that
#They both provide personal protection.
#They have mobility penalities and fatigue values, as does armour (though note that Silken Armour is armour without these, and that any heavy object should give such penalties).

Other reasons
#In the item listing, shields are listed as a subheading of the Armour section

===== Vote Tally =====
== Shields Can be used with MA ==
#[[Kasumi]]
#HappyHappyJoyJoy
#TheMouse
#BrokenShade
#[[Trueform]]
#(un)reason
#[[Raindoll]]

== No They Can't ==
#Tarleon
#[[Shemjaza]]
#BaronSamedi
#Omenowl
#medivh
#MidKnight
#Neph
#Miedvied
#[[SMK]]

== Depends On the Style ==
#GoldenH
#Requiem (given that there's a shield style in the Player's Guide)
#[[David.]]

== Comments ==
Obviously, "depends on the style" is correct, because you could always write a style that said "this style is (in)compatible with shields" and that would be that. The real question here, it seems, is whether shields can be used with styles that don't allow armor and don't specifically make mention of shields. - [[Raindoll]]

If that's the question, I'd have to say no. I just don't see, say, a snake stylist with a tower shield. - [[SMK]]

While I'm convinced I was technically correct earlier, the situation has changed with the PG. Shields are more or less either counted as form weapons, or not allowed with the form, any more than any other out-of-form weapon. --[[Kasumi]]

:You can use non-form weapons with a form. Moreover, using an MA form doesn't even stop you from using non-MA weapons: there's nothing stopping a snake stylist with the form charm activated from aborting to a parry with the grand daiklave he has in his off-hand.\\
- [[Raindoll]]

::The Form certainly doesn't stop you from using the weapons - but the weapons certainly stop you from enjoying the benefits of the Form, as per the PG. --[[Kasumi]]

:::Ah, I hadn't noticed that. Still, that seems to be a peculiarity of the form charm. Even if shields cannot be used with the form charm, they still could be used with other charms in the style -- since now most <i>martial arts</i> weapons will be incompatible with any given form charm.
:::- [[Raindoll]]

:::: Agreed. -- [[Kasumi]]

<i>I'd allow shields with any style that permitted armor, or explicitly allowed shields.</i> - [[David.]]

You could just rule that bucklers, being small and noncumbersome, are compatible, and anything larger isn't. I mean, I can (theoretically) envision a martial artist wearing a smallish shield strapped to his arm. Maybe. Ah, heck, I'd vote against shields for MA-ists, but mostly for the visual style of it. -- DigitalSentience

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@@ Line 27: / Line 27: @@
 == Shields Can be used with MA ==
 #[[Kasumi]]
-#HappyHappyJoyJoy
+#[[HappyHappyJoyJoy]]
-#TheMouse
+#[[TheMouse]]
-#BrokenShade
+#[[BrokenShade]]
 #[[Trueform]]
 #(un)reason
@@ Line 37: / Line 37: @@
 #Tarleon
 #[[Shemjaza]]
-#BaronSamedi
+#[[BaronSamedi]]
 #Omenowl
 #medivh
-#MidKnight
+#[[MidKnight]]
 #Neph
 #Miedvied
@@ Line 46: / Line 46: @@
 == Depends On the Style ==
-#GoldenH
+#[[GoldenH]]
 #Requiem (given that there's a shield style in the Player's Guide)
 #[[David.]]
@@ Line 69: / Line 69: @@
 <i>I'd allow shields with any style that permitted armor, or explicitly allowed shields.</i> - [[David.]]
-You could just rule that bucklers, being small and noncumbersome, are compatible, and anything larger isn't.  I mean, I can (theoretically) envision a martial artist wearing a smallish shield strapped to his arm.  Maybe.  Ah, heck, I'd vote against shields for MA-ists, but mostly for the visual style of it.  --  DigitalSentience
+You could just rule that bucklers, being small and noncumbersome, are compatible, and anything larger isn't.  I mean, I can (theoretically) envision a martial artist wearing a smallish shield strapped to his arm.  Maybe.  Ah, heck, I'd vote against shields for MA-ists, but mostly for the visual style of it.  --  [[DigitalSentience]]