AbyssalMelee/Molikai - Revision history

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Molikai: *Tweaking TBA some more, added another charm

2006-01-28T12:11:45Z

*Tweaking TBA some more, added another charm

New page

Tangled Blade Attack
Cost: ? --> 5 motes, 1 WP
Type: Reflexive-->Simple
Duration: Instant
Min. Melee: ?-->5
Min. Essence: 3
Prereqs: Five Shadow Feint,--> + Attunement-Shattering Block
There are times when the minions of the abyss has naught to fear from a foe, but more to fear from the weapon they carry. Or it may be that said weapon is all that stops the Abyssal from acheiving victory. With a shimmer of dark essence and a flick of the wrist, this charm directs the abyssals 'attack against his true foe: The weapon his opponent carries. Activate the charm when your opponent blocks an attack of yours completely: you should then roll the damage of your attack as normal. For every success, the weapon flies 1 foot in the direction of your choice.
--> becomes:
Activate the charm when your opponent blocks an attack of yours completely: If so, make an opposed strength roll: the Abyssa lgains a bonus number of dice to this pool equal to his essence. If successful, then Your opponent is disarmed, the weapon flying 1 yard per net success: (If it is an artifact weapon, then the Abyssal should then make an opposed essence roll. Should the Abyssal succeed, then he may reflexivly pay the commitment cost of the weapon, and de-attune it.)--> If it is an artifact weapon, then the Abyssal may reflexivly spend any number of motes, in a bid to de-attune the weapon by flooding it with Abyssa lessence: the user of the artifact may reflexivly re-attune the artifact by paying the same amount.

THeft of Tangled Essence
Cost: ? --> 3 motes, 1 WP
Type: Reflexive
Duration: Instant
Min. Melee: 5
Min. Essence: 3
Prereqs: Attunement-Shattering Block
This vharm fuctions precisel;y as attunement-shattering block, with one exception: Half (rounded down) of the dissipated essence of the artifact is stolen, and added to the Abyssal's own essence pool. THus, if this charm is used against an artifact with a commitment cost of 5, the user of the artifact must pay 5 motes to retain attunement, and the abyssal will gain 2 motes.

== Comments ==

This should be on AbyssalMelee/Molikai, there's no need to have a page for every single Charm. Aside from that, this looks alright. Melee 3, cost of say 5 motes. But don't use damage as the determining mechanic. Instead, I'd suggest it an actionless contested Dex+Melee roll between the two. - [[Telgar]]

If you're doing as telgar suggests, I'd say give the abyssal a bonus of some sort. In addition, perhaps Corrosive Parry is a plausible pre-req? The feel if not the effect is somewhat similar. Up to you, but I thought I should suggest it. -- [[Darloth]]

Basically, what you've got here is a charm that gives you a disarm attempt. Working off of [[Darloth]] and [[Telgar]]'s suggestions, you can have the text read 'You may activate this charm when your opponent parries your attack completely. You may immediately make a disarm attempt at your full dice pool.' As an essence 3 charm, I feel the abyssal should have an additional advantage here. Some options: add the character's strength in dice, add the character's essence in dice, or add the character's essence in automatic successes. If you're just adding dice you can probably keep the cost around 3 motes. If you're adding auto-successes I'd say it jumps up to 5. -[[Ambisinister]]

Hey, I wrote this up at 1 am on my way to bed, largely so I wouldn't forget it. It's going to be the first of a pair: /this/ one is a basic way of getting round things like HGD, with are gaurunteed to give you a perfect parry. Hard to parry without a weapon. Follow-ons are going to be further attacks upon the weapon, culminating into something properly nasty. ;) the /other/ tree I'm contemplating is something that screws with gaurunteed perfect dodges. Still toying with ideas for that one, but a multiple-weapon tree coming off hundred razor circle has possibilities..
- [[Molikai]]

Just be careful, Molikai. You've pretty much just said "I want to break the game's intent" by claiming that you're looking for "a way of getting round... HGD" and "something that screws with guaranteed perfect...". The whole point of HGD is that there isn't a quick fix to it. The whole point of a guaranteed perfect anything is that it's ''that'' perfect. You can't get around it. Your only chance is to wear them out. I can imagine a charm that allows you to disarm someone. Yes, that's fine. However, specifically writing it to be anti-HGD seems cheesy, like a charm that says "Oh, and the character is immune to the attacks of anyone who knows SMA". Yes, you could write that. It doesn't make it a good thing. Perhaps if this were supplemental, rather than reflexive, it'd be a start. As it is now, you put it into your combo and forget about it, until the day someone HGD's you, you knock their weapon aside in the first roll (there's no resist, even for an Ess 8 Solar), and in the second attack, filet them. More scarily, since this is reflexive, I'd guess the dodge one you mention would be too. Then you just knock away their weapon in the first attack, and in the second, you make it undodgeable. Suddenly, you've killed a Solar in one swift combo, which goes against the majority of how the game works. Defense always trumps offense is the rule of thumb in combat, and HGD is perfect for a reason. If you want to make a charm that gives you a disarm, great. Just don't make it so obviously anti-HGD. Heck, make it simple, with a contested roll. That at least lets you HGD again, or something. -- GregLink

Eh. I have no problem with this being intended as a way to prevent people from using melee charms. That's what disarms do after all. It's even fine as a Reflexive since it has to be activated in response to having your attack blocked. Once they've blocked it, they've blocked it. It's done, over, happened. The problem is that there's no contested roll, no chance for them to do anything about it. Weapon-Breaking doesn't have a contest, but it has a fairly rough time defeating 5MM weapons. You shouldn't be able to just automatically disarm someone without a fairly expensive cost and a high-end charm. - [[Telgar]]
Hmm. Fair point: I'll think on it when I'm more awake. My current line of though, on reflection, is t ouse it as the seed of an 'attack the weapon, not the weilder' tree. THis is largely a theoretica lexercise, triggered off by one of the discussionos on HGD and it's counterparts. :) - [[Molikai]]

As it stands, I'd balance this charm against Attunement-Shattering Block. I think it's a reasonable idea as a charm, but seems to skip vital resistance steps ala Snake Body Technique or Grasping Mantis Defense. Perhaps something that fuses the effects of Theiving Raiton's Claw and Attunement-Shattering Block? - [[Vaegrim]]

Hmm. I like that idea... hmm. [[Molikai]]

You might also consider making it uncomboable (type: reflexive, duration: one turn). That gives you a lot more leeway in dishing out powerful effects. Heck, if you do that, you could probably even explicitly call the disarming a perfect effect. ~[[Capric]]

No, I think for it to be viable, it needs to be comboable. But expensive. Perhaps 7m 1w or something, maybe higher. -- [[Darloth]]

Hmm. Still sleepy.. really need to go over these at the weekend. Updated the charm with my latest thoughts on it, culled from here. - [[Molikai]]

I like a lot of it now, but I'd prefer if there was an essence-war to de-attune artifacts. Attunement in the heat of battle is nigh impossible, and every canon de-attunement charm I'm familiar with doesn't just 'do' it, it starts an essence-bleeding war. I'd be willing to take everything else as-is, methinks, if instead it was an essence bidding war after the Abyssal's contested Essence success roll. -- GregLink

Actually, most canon charms have to be used multiple times. As I remember Attunement Breaking Block simply says they can reflexively reattune it... so it needs to be used again to sap more essence, etc. -- [[Darloth]] hasn't actually checked the charms, but thinks his memory is right

Hmm. True. THe only De-attunement charm I can think of, off the top of my head, is attunement-shattering block.. Hmm. Though that gives me an amusing idea for another charm.. alterations to TBA going up, and a new one.. - [[Molikai]]

Darloth: no bidding in canon, is there?

2006-01-27T17:39:02Z

no bidding in canon, is there?

@@ Line 21: / Line 21: @@
 == Comments ==
-This should be on [[AbyssalMeleeAbyssalMelee/Molikai/Molikai]], there's no need to have a page for every single Charm. Aside from that, this looks alright. Melee 3, cost of say 5 motes. But don't use damage as the determining mechanic. Instead, I'd suggest it an actionless contested Dex+Melee roll between the two. - [[Telgar]]
+This should be on [[AbyssalMelee/Molikai]], there's no need to have a page for every single Charm. Aside from that, this looks alright. Melee 3, cost of say 5 motes. But don't use damage as the determining mechanic. Instead, I'd suggest it an actionless contested Dex+Melee roll between the two. - [[Telgar]]
 If you're doing as telgar suggests, I'd say give the abyssal a bonus of some sort. In addition, perhaps Corrosive Parry is a plausible pre-req? The feel if not the effect is somewhat similar. Up to you, but I thought I should suggest it. <Br> -- [[Darloth]]

@@ Line 8: / Line 8: @@
 There are times when the minions of the abyss has naught to fear from a foe, but more to fear from the weapon they carry. Or it may be that said weapon is all that stops the Abyssal from acheiving victory. With a shimmer of dark essence and a flick of the wrist, this charm directs the abyssals 'attack against his true foe: The weapon his opponent carries. Activate the charm when your opponent blocks an attack of yours completely: you should then roll the damage of your attack as normal. For every success, the weapon flies 1 foot in the direction of your choice.
 --> becomes:
-Activate the charm when your opponent blocks an attack of yours completely: If so, make an opposed strength roll: the Abyssa lgains a bonus number of dice to this pool equal to his essence. If successful, then Your opponent is disarmed, the weapon flying 1 yard per net success: If it is an artifact weapon, then the Abyssal should then make an opposed essence roll. Should the Abyssal succeed, then he may reflexivly pay the commitment cost of the weapon, and de-attune it.
+Activate the charm when your opponent blocks an attack of yours completely: If so, make an opposed strength roll: the Abyssa lgains a bonus number of dice to this pool equal to his essence. If successful, then Your opponent is disarmed, the weapon flying 1 yard per net success: (If it is an artifact weapon, then the Abyssal should then make an opposed essence roll. Should the Abyssal succeed, then he may reflexivly pay the commitment cost of the weapon, and de-attune it.)--> <i>If it is an artifact weapon, then the Abyssal may reflexivly spend any number of motes, in a bid to de-attune the weapon by flooding it with Abyssa lessence: the user of the artifact may reflexivly re-attune the artifact by paying the same amount.</i>
 == Comments ==
-This should be on AbyssalMelee/Molikai, there's no need to have a page for every single Charm. Aside from that, this looks alright. Melee 3, cost of say 5 motes. But don't use damage as the determining mechanic. Instead, I'd suggest it an actionless contested Dex+Melee roll between the two. - [[Telgar]]
+This should be on [[AbyssalMeleeAbyssalMelee/Molikai/Molikai]], there's no need to have a page for every single Charm. Aside from that, this looks alright. Melee 3, cost of say 5 motes. But don't use damage as the determining mechanic. Instead, I'd suggest it an actionless contested Dex+Melee roll between the two. - [[Telgar]]
 If you're doing as telgar suggests, I'd say give the abyssal a bonus of some sort. In addition, perhaps Corrosive Parry is a plausible pre-req? The feel if not the effect is somewhat similar. Up to you, but I thought I should suggest it. <Br> -- [[Darloth]]
@@ Line 20: / Line 30: @@
   - [[Molikai]]
-Just be careful, Molikai. You've pretty much just said "I want to break the game's intent" by claiming that you're looking for "a way of getting round... HGD" and "something that screws with guaranteed perfect...".   The whole point of HGD is that there isn't a quick fix to it. The whole point of a guaranteed perfect anything is that it's ''that'' perfect. You can't get around it. Your only chance is to wear them out. I can imagine a charm that allows you to disarm someone. Yes, that's fine. However, specifically writing it to be anti-HGD seems cheesy, like a charm that says "Oh, and the character is immune to the attacks of anyone who knows SMA". Yes, you could write that. It doesn't make it a good thing. Perhaps if this were supplemental, rather than reflexive, it'd be a start. As it is now, you put it into your combo and forget about it, until the day someone HGD's you, you knock their weapon aside in the first roll (there's no resist, even for an Ess 8 Solar), and in the second attack, filet them. More scarily, since this is reflexive, I'd guess the dodge one you mention would be too. Then you just knock away their weapon in the first attack, and in the second, you make it undodgeable. Suddenly, you've killed a Solar in one swift combo, which goes against the majority of how the game works. Defense always trumps offense is the rule of thumb in combat, and HGD is perfect for a reason. If you want to make a charm that gives you a disarm, great. Just don't make it so obviously anti-HGD. Heck, make it simple, with a contested roll. That at least lets you HGD again, or something. -- GregLink
+Just be careful, Molikai. You've pretty much just said "I want to break the game's intent" by claiming that you're looking for "a way of getting round... HGD" and "something that screws with guaranteed perfect...".   The whole point of HGD is that there isn't a quick fix to it. The whole point of a guaranteed perfect anything is that it's ''that'' perfect. You can't get around it. Your only chance is to wear them out. I can imagine a charm that allows you to disarm someone. Yes, that's fine. However, specifically writing it to be anti-HGD seems cheesy, like a charm that says "Oh, and the character is immune to the attacks of anyone who knows SMA". Yes, you could write that. It doesn't make it a good thing. Perhaps if this were supplemental, rather than reflexive, it'd be a start. As it is now, you put it into your combo and forget about it, until the day someone HGD's you, you knock their weapon aside in the first roll (there's no resist, even for an Ess 8 Solar), and in the second attack, filet them. More scarily, since this is reflexive, I'd guess the dodge one you mention would be too. Then you just knock away their weapon in the first attack, and in the second, you make it undodgeable. Suddenly, you've killed a Solar in one swift combo, which goes against the majority of how the game works. Defense always trumps offense is the rule of thumb in combat, and HGD is perfect for a reason. If you want to make a charm that gives you a disarm, great. Just don't make it so obviously anti-HGD. Heck, make it simple, with a contested roll. That at least lets you HGD again, or something. -- [[GregLink]]
 Eh. I have no problem with this being intended as a way to prevent people from using melee charms. That's what disarms do after all. It's even fine as a Reflexive since it has to be activated in response to having your attack blocked. Once they've blocked it, they've blocked it. It's done, over, happened. The problem is that there's no contested roll, no chance for them to do anything about it. Weapon-Breaking doesn't have a contest, but it has a fairly rough time defeating 5MM weapons. You shouldn't be able to just automatically disarm someone without a fairly expensive cost and a high-end charm. - [[Telgar]]
@@ Line 35: / Line 45: @@
 Hmm. Still sleepy.. really need to go over these at the weekend. Updated the charm with my latest thoughts on it, culled from here. - [[Molikai]]
-I like a lot of it now, but I'd prefer if there was an essence-war to de-attune artifacts. Attunement in the heat of battle is nigh impossible, and every canon de-attunement charm I'm familiar with doesn't just 'do' it, it starts an essence-bleeding war. I'd be willing to take everything else as-is, methinks, if instead it was an essence bidding war after the Abyssal's contested Essence success roll. -- GregLink
+I like a lot of it now, but I'd prefer if there was an essence-war to de-attune artifacts. Attunement in the heat of battle is nigh impossible, and every canon de-attunement charm I'm familiar with doesn't just 'do' it, it starts an essence-bleeding war. I'd be willing to take everything else as-is, methinks, if instead it was an essence bidding war after the Abyssal's contested Essence success roll. -- [[GregLink]]
 Actually, most canon charms have to be used multiple times. As I remember Attunement Breaking Block simply says they can reflexively reattune it... so it needs to be used again to sap more essence, etc. <br> -- [[Darloth]] <i>hasn't actually checked the charms, but thinks his memory is right</i>

@@ Line 8: / Line 8: @@
 There are times when the minions of the abyss has naught to fear from a foe, but more to fear from the weapon they carry. Or it may be that said weapon is all that stops the Abyssal from acheiving victory. With a shimmer of dark essence and a flick of the wrist, this charm directs the abyssals 'attack against his true foe: The weapon his opponent carries. Activate the charm when your opponent blocks an attack of yours completely: you should then roll the damage of your attack as normal. For every success, the weapon flies 1 foot in the direction of your choice.
 --> becomes:
-Activate the charm when your opponent blocks an attack of yours completely: If so, make an opposed strength roll: the Abyssa lgains a bonus number of dice to this pool equal to his essence. If successful, then Your opponent is disarmed, the weapon flying 1 yard per net success: (If it is an artifact weapon, then the Abyssal should then make an opposed essence roll. Should the Abyssal succeed, then he may reflexivly pay the commitment cost of the weapon, and de-attune it.)--> <i>If it is an artifact weapon, then the Abyssal may reflexivly spend any number of motes, in a bid to de-attune the weapon by flooding it with Abyssa lessence: the user of the artifact may reflexivly re-attune the artifact by paying the same amount.</i>
+Activate the charm when your opponent blocks an attack of yours completely: If so, make an opposed strength roll: the Abyssa lgains a bonus number of dice to this pool equal to his essence. If successful, then Your opponent is disarmed, the weapon flying 1 yard per net success: If it is an artifact weapon, then the Abyssal should then make an opposed essence roll. Should the Abyssal succeed, then he may reflexivly pay the commitment cost of the weapon, and de-attune it.
 == Comments ==
-This should be on [[AbyssalMelee/Molikai]], there's no need to have a page for every single Charm. Aside from that, this looks alright. Melee 3, cost of say 5 motes. But don't use damage as the determining mechanic. Instead, I'd suggest it an actionless contested Dex+Melee roll between the two. - [[Telgar]]
+This should be on AbyssalMelee/Molikai, there's no need to have a page for every single Charm. Aside from that, this looks alright. Melee 3, cost of say 5 motes. But don't use damage as the determining mechanic. Instead, I'd suggest it an actionless contested Dex+Melee roll between the two. - [[Telgar]]
 If you're doing as telgar suggests, I'd say give the abyssal a bonus of some sort. In addition, perhaps Corrosive Parry is a plausible pre-req? The feel if not the effect is somewhat similar. Up to you, but I thought I should suggest it. <Br> -- [[Darloth]]
@@ Line 30: / Line 20: @@
   - [[Molikai]]
-Just be careful, Molikai. You've pretty much just said "I want to break the game's intent" by claiming that you're looking for "a way of getting round... HGD" and "something that screws with guaranteed perfect...".   The whole point of HGD is that there isn't a quick fix to it. The whole point of a guaranteed perfect anything is that it's ''that'' perfect. You can't get around it. Your only chance is to wear them out. I can imagine a charm that allows you to disarm someone. Yes, that's fine. However, specifically writing it to be anti-HGD seems cheesy, like a charm that says "Oh, and the character is immune to the attacks of anyone who knows SMA". Yes, you could write that. It doesn't make it a good thing. Perhaps if this were supplemental, rather than reflexive, it'd be a start. As it is now, you put it into your combo and forget about it, until the day someone HGD's you, you knock their weapon aside in the first roll (there's no resist, even for an Ess 8 Solar), and in the second attack, filet them. More scarily, since this is reflexive, I'd guess the dodge one you mention would be too. Then you just knock away their weapon in the first attack, and in the second, you make it undodgeable. Suddenly, you've killed a Solar in one swift combo, which goes against the majority of how the game works. Defense always trumps offense is the rule of thumb in combat, and HGD is perfect for a reason. If you want to make a charm that gives you a disarm, great. Just don't make it so obviously anti-HGD. Heck, make it simple, with a contested roll. That at least lets you HGD again, or something. -- [[GregLink]]
+Just be careful, Molikai. You've pretty much just said "I want to break the game's intent" by claiming that you're looking for "a way of getting round... HGD" and "something that screws with guaranteed perfect...".   The whole point of HGD is that there isn't a quick fix to it. The whole point of a guaranteed perfect anything is that it's ''that'' perfect. You can't get around it. Your only chance is to wear them out. I can imagine a charm that allows you to disarm someone. Yes, that's fine. However, specifically writing it to be anti-HGD seems cheesy, like a charm that says "Oh, and the character is immune to the attacks of anyone who knows SMA". Yes, you could write that. It doesn't make it a good thing. Perhaps if this were supplemental, rather than reflexive, it'd be a start. As it is now, you put it into your combo and forget about it, until the day someone HGD's you, you knock their weapon aside in the first roll (there's no resist, even for an Ess 8 Solar), and in the second attack, filet them. More scarily, since this is reflexive, I'd guess the dodge one you mention would be too. Then you just knock away their weapon in the first attack, and in the second, you make it undodgeable. Suddenly, you've killed a Solar in one swift combo, which goes against the majority of how the game works. Defense always trumps offense is the rule of thumb in combat, and HGD is perfect for a reason. If you want to make a charm that gives you a disarm, great. Just don't make it so obviously anti-HGD. Heck, make it simple, with a contested roll. That at least lets you HGD again, or something. -- GregLink
 Eh. I have no problem with this being intended as a way to prevent people from using melee charms. That's what disarms do after all. It's even fine as a Reflexive since it has to be activated in response to having your attack blocked. Once they've blocked it, they've blocked it. It's done, over, happened. The problem is that there's no contested roll, no chance for them to do anything about it. Weapon-Breaking doesn't have a contest, but it has a fairly rough time defeating 5MM weapons. You shouldn't be able to just automatically disarm someone without a fairly expensive cost and a high-end charm. - [[Telgar]]
@@ Line 45: / Line 35: @@
 Hmm. Still sleepy.. really need to go over these at the weekend. Updated the charm with my latest thoughts on it, culled from here. - [[Molikai]]
-I like a lot of it now, but I'd prefer if there was an essence-war to de-attune artifacts. Attunement in the heat of battle is nigh impossible, and every canon de-attunement charm I'm familiar with doesn't just 'do' it, it starts an essence-bleeding war. I'd be willing to take everything else as-is, methinks, if instead it was an essence bidding war after the Abyssal's contested Essence success roll. -- [[GregLink]]
+I like a lot of it now, but I'd prefer if there was an essence-war to de-attune artifacts. Attunement in the heat of battle is nigh impossible, and every canon de-attunement charm I'm familiar with doesn't just 'do' it, it starts an essence-bleeding war. I'd be willing to take everything else as-is, methinks, if instead it was an essence bidding war after the Abyssal's contested Essence success roll. -- GregLink
 Actually, most canon charms have to be used multiple times. As I remember Attunement Breaking Block simply says they can reflexively reattune it... so it needs to be used again to sap more essence, etc. <br> -- [[Darloth]] <i>hasn't actually checked the charms, but thinks his memory is right</i>

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