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=== AbstractRange Comments Archive ===
Basing changing ranges on Dodge will mean that every fighter will have to learn dodge in order to fight. Actually, I think weapons training usually includes footwork, and I would allow you to substitute Dex+Melee or Dex+Martial Arts or Dex+Brawl in order to change ranges if I were to use these rules [gc3]

The fact that martial training involves footwork means that anyone who wants to be a fencer should learn Dodge, not that Melee should be able to substitute for Dodge. Most martial arts teach some degree of gymnastics. Does that mean that Martial Arts should be interchangeable with Athletics for tasks which require poise? _[[Ikselam]]

I think that's a totally dumb idea, gc3. What you said can only make sense to me like, "combat training usually includes positioning as well as weapons usage," which is to say that any well-trained fighter will learn Dodge. Presuming that a serious fighter need not learn Dodge is a silly thing in Exalted to begin with, and I don't see any sensible reason to contract its scope any further. I'll also add that with a sufficiently large weapon, you need not learn positioning tactics - if you start out with enough of a length advantage, then you can afford the slow erosion of your pools as a mortal opponent approaches you, since most long weapons are so highly damaging that a lower-Range opponent won't be able to obtain an advantage over you before you incapacitate them. In other words, I think you commented without thinking carefully, and I wouldn't advise repeating that, because it makes you look much less intelligent and capable than I'm sure you can look. - [[willows]] is not feeling particularly friendly today

If dodge were a neccessity for every fighter, then it would be in the DAWN caste for solars, not the NIGHT. I don't think dodge represents simple footwork... it's more like duck and cover, major jumps, and evasion. Footwork is so essential to combat then if it were a seperate skill, your attack score would be limited to the maximum of your footwork score or your melee skill, just as melee is limited to your ride skill when mounted.

Thus I reiterate: to close ranges you should be able to use your melee skill, especially if you can tie up your opponent's weapon in order to facilitate your advance. You could use dodge instead, too. [gc3]

If you don't have Dodge, just roll straight Dex. in power combat, there's no penalty for exalts not having the skill. It makes sense that a character with Dodge will be better at moving around in combat. But it also makes sense that EVERYONE can do this.- Stryck

I'm agree that another combat ability could be used. Feinting, beating, pinning, certain blocks, acrobatic kicks, and many other things could all be used to advance or retreat. - [[Morpheus]]

Another reason not to permit combat Abilities to be used for Range manipulations (outside of Charms, where they are obviously kosher) is to permit higher diversity in character types! Splitting the effects from simple weapon skill makes it possible to create virtuoso swordmen who simply cannot grasp the subtle positioning of maai even though their cutting form is beyond reproach, or to make relatively unskilled warriors who make up for their clumsiness with weaponry by being unearthly fast on their feet. Morpheus, I would respond that all of these tactics are appropriate Range manipulations, but they should be the province of Stunts and Charms, not that of the baseline ruleset. Your use of the word "acrobatic" to describe a kick, for instance, suggests to me that something other than simply throwing an attack is occurring.

Secondly, allowing weapons skills (which, under this system, is what they are--they are not "fighting skills") to manipulate Range makes them unbalancingly efficient.

That is to say, though in some bizarro world your arguments for realism are appropriate, they can all be handled by the more complex system, while it also permits more and more interesting character types besides, creating opportunities for a more complex game. And in a game where combat is so heavily detailed already, I believe that this is a good thing.

I might also add, gc3, that many weapons skills that are useful to fighters are not Dawn Caste Abilities--among them Endurance, Resistance, Athletics, and Awareness. You argument that all combative Abilities doesn't make any sense when there are obviously more than five combative Abilities, and it's clear that any competent young Dawn will diversify into these Abilities, rather than mastering all the weaponry techniques that are native to his Caste. Caste Abilities provide a palette of schticks for players long before they are useful to provide Caste definition, particularly among characters as flexible as Solars. - [[willows]]

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Re: existing dodge charms not allowing range manipulation, what about the two abyssal teleporting dodge charms (Flickering Wisp and [Something] evasion assault,iirc). Both specifically allow movement to within pEss yards and Dodge yards respectively. The second one also allows the abyssal to appear behind the attacker and take a back attack on his action, so long as he's within range. Also what about hopping defense enhanced charms, which would imply at least an opening of the range, perhaps extending the PC use of excess movement to attempt to close range reflexively. -- ReallyBored

Good point. I was thinking specifically of Solar Dodge, but you're right that Abyssal Dodge has Charms that may well be outright Range manipulations. Another option is that most extant dodges are Range manipulations - this would explain why they have to be activated before the attack roll, because they universally affect its pool. - [[willows]]

Heh, and more questions. I feel like I should preface this all with a "I do like the idea, but details are bugging me," though. ^_^ What about the athletics combos? I guess you can assume that the attack is made at home range, but can you also end your move with a range change, if desired? And flyby attacks? -- ReallyBored

Roger covers flyby attacks; essentially you're making them at home range because your target is inferiorly mobile. As for athletics - there's a reason that positioning requires an action, and allowing these things to make automatic range shifts for you would make them significantly more powerful. I'd say that they don't affect range at all. - [[willows]]

Who's Roger? But, yeah I figured flybys are at home range. The thing is, that logic can extend to the athletics combos allowing movement. I can buy that the charm doesn't change the range for the combat overall, but it should make that single attack at home range. In the most extreme, an Abyssal using a <nowiki>Spider Pounce/Falling Scythe</nowiki> combo to make an attack has instantaneously made a leaping attack from a dead stop. For that instant, you can't move fast enough to maintain the range. So he gets his strike in at his home range, but you can recover and reassert ranges (well, assuming you didn't just bite it). In a similar vein, as an idea for dodges that don't specify movement ability (ie, non-hopping, non-teleporting), maybe a dodge doesn't change the combat range, but it can remove range penalties for a subsequient parry on the same attack. -- ReallyBored

[[Ikselam]] is Roger. His musings on combat are at CombatPlus; in case you skimmed it by, this system is an effort at imposing my worldview on his revision. While I abstractly like your ideas for range-manipulating Charms, the problem with them is that they suddenly improve a huge class of Charms, based on their flavor text. This seems odd to me, and while a small perturbation of Charm balance isn't a terrible thing, a Charm that doubles your damage and automatically attacks at home range is clearly better than one that doesn't have that second effect. - [[willows]]

The thing is, it's not just the flavor text, it's the mechanics of the action. Leaping Tiger Attack (I think that's the solar runby charm) allows the attacker to make a full sprint and attack at any point during that move. Falling Scythe and Thunderbolt attack are making leaping attacks, basically a limited flyby. Neither grants enough movement to change the overall range, but they grant enough movement in the instant of attack to change the range of the strike. I guess you make it an either/or thing. If you use the charm, you can double damage or make a home-range attack as you have to choose whether you're moving to give yourself more momentum or moving to improve your positioning in the instant before you strike. -- ReallyBored

That's a workable solution, if you like it. Personally I don't. Particularly for SolarCharms, the effects of Charms should be broad rather than flexible...which this fix would violate. - [[willows]]

I'm so pleased with this whole system. It's quite well thought out. I can't say I'm gonna use it exactly, but it's gonna be a great help in my games in the future. Thanks. -[[Morpheus]]

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-=== AbstractRange Comments Archive ===
+=== [[AbstractRange]] Comments Archive ===
 Basing changing ranges on Dodge will mean that every fighter will have to learn dodge in order to fight. Actually, I think weapons training usually includes footwork, and I would allow you to substitute Dex+Melee or Dex+Martial Arts or Dex+Brawl in order to change ranges if I were to use these rules [gc3]
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-Re: existing dodge charms not allowing range manipulation, what about the two abyssal teleporting dodge charms (Flickering Wisp and [Something] evasion assault,iirc).  Both specifically allow movement to within pEss yards and Dodge yards respectively.  The second one also allows the abyssal to appear behind the attacker and take a back attack on his action, so long as he's within range. Also what about hopping defense enhanced charms, which would imply at least an opening of the range, perhaps extending the PC use of excess movement to attempt to close range reflexively. -- ReallyBored
+Re: existing dodge charms not allowing range manipulation, what about the two abyssal teleporting dodge charms (Flickering Wisp and [Something] evasion assault,iirc).  Both specifically allow movement to within pEss yards and Dodge yards respectively.  The second one also allows the abyssal to appear behind the attacker and take a back attack on his action, so long as he's within range. Also what about hopping defense enhanced charms, which would imply at least an opening of the range, perhaps extending the PC use of excess movement to attempt to close range reflexively. -- [[ReallyBored]]
 Good point. I was thinking specifically of Solar Dodge, but you're right that Abyssal Dodge has Charms that may well be outright Range manipulations. Another option is that most extant dodges are Range manipulations - this would explain why they have to be activated before the attack roll, because they universally affect its pool. - [[willows]]
-Heh, and more questions.  I feel like I should preface this all with a "I do like the idea, but details are bugging me," though. ^_^  What about the athletics combos?  I guess you can assume that the attack is made at home range, but can you also end your move with a range change, if desired?  And flyby attacks? -- ReallyBored
+Heh, and more questions.  I feel like I should preface this all with a "I do like the idea, but details are bugging me," though. ^_^  What about the athletics combos?  I guess you can assume that the attack is made at home range, but can you also end your move with a range change, if desired?  And flyby attacks? -- [[ReallyBored]]
 Roger covers flyby attacks; essentially you're making them at home range because your target is inferiorly mobile. As for athletics - there's a <i>reason</i> that positioning requires an action, and allowing these things to make automatic range shifts for you would make them significantly more powerful.  I'd say that they don't affect range at all. - [[willows]]
-Who's Roger?  But, yeah I figured flybys are at home range.  The thing is, that logic can extend to the athletics combos allowing movement.  I can buy that the charm doesn't change the range for the combat overall, but it should make that single attack at home range.  In the most extreme, an Abyssal using a <nowiki>Spider Pounce/Falling Scythe</nowiki> combo to make an attack has instantaneously made a leaping attack from a dead stop.  For that instant, you can't move <i>fast enough</i> to maintain the range.  So he gets his strike in at his home range, but you can recover and reassert ranges (well, assuming you didn't just bite it).  In a similar vein, as an idea for dodges that don't specify movement ability (ie, non-hopping, non-teleporting), maybe a dodge doesn't change the combat range, but it can remove range penalties for a subsequient parry on the same attack. -- ReallyBored
+Who's Roger?  But, yeah I figured flybys are at home range.  The thing is, that logic can extend to the athletics combos allowing movement.  I can buy that the charm doesn't change the range for the combat overall, but it should make that single attack at home range.  In the most extreme, an Abyssal using a <nowiki>Spider Pounce/Falling Scythe</nowiki> combo to make an attack has instantaneously made a leaping attack from a dead stop.  For that instant, you can't move <i>fast enough</i> to maintain the range.  So he gets his strike in at his home range, but you can recover and reassert ranges (well, assuming you didn't just bite it).  In a similar vein, as an idea for dodges that don't specify movement ability (ie, non-hopping, non-teleporting), maybe a dodge doesn't change the combat range, but it can remove range penalties for a subsequient parry on the same attack. -- [[ReallyBored]]
-[[Ikselam]] is Roger. His musings on combat are at CombatPlus; in case you skimmed it by, this system is an effort at imposing my worldview on his revision. While I abstractly like your ideas for range-manipulating Charms, the problem with them is that they suddenly improve a huge class of Charms, based on their <i>flavor text.</i> This seems odd to me, and while a small perturbation of Charm balance isn't a terrible thing, a Charm that doubles your damage <i>and</i> automatically attacks at home range is clearly better than one that doesn't have that second effect. - [[willows]]
+[[Ikselam]] is Roger. His musings on combat are at [[CombatPlus]]; in case you skimmed it by, this system is an effort at imposing my worldview on his revision. While I abstractly like your ideas for range-manipulating Charms, the problem with them is that they suddenly improve a huge class of Charms, based on their <i>flavor text.</i> This seems odd to me, and while a small perturbation of Charm balance isn't a terrible thing, a Charm that doubles your damage <i>and</i> automatically attacks at home range is clearly better than one that doesn't have that second effect. - [[willows]]
-The thing is, it's not just the flavor text, it's the mechanics of the action.  Leaping Tiger Attack (I think that's the solar runby charm) allows the attacker to make a full sprint and attack at any point during that move.  Falling Scythe and Thunderbolt attack are making leaping attacks, basically a limited flyby.  Neither grants enough movement to change the overall range, but they grant enough movement in the instant of attack to change the range of the strike.  I guess you make it an either/or thing.  If you use the charm, you can double damage or make a home-range attack as you have to choose whether you're moving to give yourself more momentum or moving to improve your positioning in the instant before you strike. -- ReallyBored
+The thing is, it's not just the flavor text, it's the mechanics of the action.  Leaping Tiger Attack (I think that's the solar runby charm) allows the attacker to make a full sprint and attack at any point during that move.  Falling Scythe and Thunderbolt attack are making leaping attacks, basically a limited flyby.  Neither grants enough movement to change the overall range, but they grant enough movement in the instant of attack to change the range of the strike.  I guess you make it an either/or thing.  If you use the charm, you can double damage or make a home-range attack as you have to choose whether you're moving to give yourself more momentum or moving to improve your positioning in the instant before you strike. -- [[ReallyBored]]
-That's a workable solution, if you like it. Personally I don't. Particularly for SolarCharms, the effects of Charms should be <i>broad</i> rather than <i>flexible</i>...which this fix would violate. - [[willows]]
+That's a workable solution, if you like it. Personally I don't. Particularly for [[SolarCharms]], the effects of Charms should be <i>broad</i> rather than <i>flexible</i>...which this fix would violate. - [[willows]]
 I'm so pleased with this whole system. It's quite well thought out. I can't say I'm gonna use it exactly, but it's gonna be a great help in my games in the future. Thanks. -[[Morpheus]]

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